Posted by Apocal
- April 20, 2018, 07:43:02 AMPersonally, I think so too, but you really need to adjust the entire mod around it as a factor. Look at how many one-handed sword and board troops there are in the factions' troop trees. There aren't very many troop types with high-end piercing or blunt weapons other than companions or uniques. It could be cool to see something like the fight against the pit-fighter in Meereen, in ADWD:
[spoiler]"In the pit that would have taken your arm off, old man."
"We are not in the pit."
"Take off that armor!"
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]"In the pit that would have taken your arm off, old man."
"We are not in the pit."
"Take off that armor!"
[/spoiler]
Posted by DWA
- April 20, 2018, 02:52:28 AMYa i see what your are saying. I do feel there should be a little bit higher top end though.
Posted by Apocal
- April 19, 2018, 12:56:57 PMQuote from: DWA on April 18, 2018, 04:30:47 PMtypically weapons good against armor would have slower speed.
So a halberd with high piercing damage and slow attack would be good against heavy armor. This troop would be vulnerable to for example another troop with a sword. The Very highest end troops/equipment should make you or the troop into a tank. They should be scarce but on a medieval battlefield the finest plate armors bid make the wearer practically a tank.
A maul would be another weapon that would gain a niche if provided a heavily armoured target.
Just so I'm sure you're understanding me, I'm talking about how the game actually plays out with high armor values. In-game, a troop with heavy armor in the 80-100 range doesn't have to worry about a swordsman because swords virtually always deal cutting damage. I messed around with armor settings on my install of this mod so I am not sure they are still the same but the defaults make cutting damage the worst type (both soak- and reduction-wise). Power strike helps somewhat, but once you get up to ~96 armor (IME) one-handed swords deal negligible damage, so little they don't even stop your attacks at times. You can kill them easy-peasy in exchange for a single-digit bit of health, if even that.
With a maul (or any weapon in a similar vein), it gets worse because even if a maul or sledgehammer is slow as hell, it can crush through blocks.
Also, low-tier troops in most mods have terrible weapon proficiency, bad enough that even if their weapons are theoretically faster due to stats, they are slower in action because a player has much higher relevant weapon proficiency.
Quote from: DWA on April 18, 2018, 04:30:47 PMCurrently and in most mods there ends up being a singular best weapon. A armour upgrade would allow there to be many best weapons, it would depend on what you are trying to do.
Regardless the values for actual plate armor should exceed the mail armor and they don't.
With higher armor values, the number of viable weapons decreases because you might wind up facing a tank -- and if your weapon can't break through the reduction threshold, you might as well throw it down in exchange for fists for all the good it will do you. This mod isn't really about end-game weapon diversity either; you need to have weapons capable of killing wights and white walkers or else you are completely screwed.
Posted by DWA
- April 18, 2018, 04:30:47 PMQuote from: Apocal on April 18, 2018, 12:46:53 PMQuote from: DWA on April 18, 2018, 12:01:41 PMAnother example would be knights depending onthe faction could be optamized to fight other knights, masses of light troops or med troops. This would provide i think a bit more of a diverse troop tree, spicing it up a bit and limiting the cases of many units being simply better versions of the previous giving one little incentive not to upgrade except cost.
This allows a place for a whole varietly of weapons to have a niche.
If you can take out heavily armored troop types, you can positively reave guys with less armor. Even better if you are wearing heavy armor yourself, because giving people close to 100 armor (80-90 + higher quality + lordly gauntlets) in the body will make them walking tanks. It will also mean the actual fights will take forever to resolve if you're going for a quantity approach rather than quality.
typically weapons good against armor would have slower speed.
So a halberd with high piercing damage and slow attack would be good against heavy armor. This troop would be vulnerable to for example another troop with a sword. The Very highest end troops/equipment should make you or the troop into a tank. They should be scarce but on a medieval battlefield the finest plate armors bid make the wearer practically a tank.
A maul would be another weapon that would gain a niche if provided a heavily armoured target.
Currently and in most mods there ends up being a singular best weapon. A armour upgrade would allow there to be many best weapons, it would depend on what you are trying to do.
Regardless the values for actual plate armor should exceed the mail armor and they don't.
Posted by Apocal
- April 18, 2018, 12:46:53 PMQuote from: DWA on April 18, 2018, 12:01:41 PMAnother example would be knights depending onthe faction could be optamized to fight other knights, masses of light troops or med troops. This would provide i think a bit more of a diverse troop tree, spicing it up a bit and limiting the cases of many units being simply better versions of the previous giving one little incentive not to upgrade except cost.
This allows a place for a whole varietly of weapons to have a niche.
If you can take out heavily armored troop types, you can positively reave guys with less armor. Even better if you are wearing heavy armor yourself, because giving people close to 100 armor (80-90 + higher quality + lordly gauntlets) in the body will make them walking tanks. It will also mean the actual fights will take forever to resolve if you're going for a quantity approach rather than quality.
Posted by DWA
- April 18, 2018, 12:01:41 PMTo maybe resurrect this topic. The top armor values of around 50 plus gloves and around 50 for helmets. Those are very similar values to Viking Conquest but with significantly more powerful bows.
My thought would be med armor values should be around 50 on the top end for helmets and armor and heavy armor values would be more around 80 for armor and 80-90 for the heaviest helmets.
This would provide a niche for anti heavy troop weapons for example levy with halberd.
For example there would be light, med, and heavy troops. These troops would then be intended to fight light med or heavy troops.
Another example would be knights depending onthe faction could be optamized to fight other knights, masses of light troops or med troops. This would provide i think a bit more of a diverse troop tree, spicing it up a bit and limiting the cases of many units being simply better versions of the previous giving one little incentive not to upgrade except cost.
This allows a place for a whole varietly of weapons to have a niche.
My thought would be med armor values should be around 50 on the top end for helmets and armor and heavy armor values would be more around 80 for armor and 80-90 for the heaviest helmets.
This would provide a niche for anti heavy troop weapons for example levy with halberd.
For example there would be light, med, and heavy troops. These troops would then be intended to fight light med or heavy troops.
Another example would be knights depending onthe faction could be optamized to fight other knights, masses of light troops or med troops. This would provide i think a bit more of a diverse troop tree, spicing it up a bit and limiting the cases of many units being simply better versions of the previous giving one little incentive not to upgrade except cost.
This allows a place for a whole varietly of weapons to have a niche.
Posted by DWA
- April 01, 2018, 10:49:37 AMI believe mounted troops were wearing that but I don't recall the standard levy forced wearing substantial armor. Regardless it does seem that short bows from bandits shouldn't be a substantial threat to knights or at least not nearly as accurate as they are.
Ramsey doesn't feel the need for a prolonged archer engagement and armies in GOT at least to my knowledge do seem to be build around Longbows or shortbows dominating the battlefield. Bows should be for killing med and light troops.
Ramsey doesn't feel the need for a prolonged archer engagement and armies in GOT at least to my knowledge do seem to be build around Longbows or shortbows dominating the battlefield. Bows should be for killing med and light troops.
Posted by Indo95
- April 01, 2018, 10:26:51 AMQuote from: DWA on April 01, 2018, 08:02:57 AM
If I recall correctly and I may not in the battle of the bastards Jon's army consists of a contingent of wildlings which would probably be classed as light infantry and don't wear notable armor of any type or helmets and the northern bannermen he has been able to raise. While the bannermen are wearing armor and I am not an armor expert it appears to not be plate/coat of plates armor. I believe the north favored lighter armor due to a combination of the weather and cost.
What I'm saying is that I'd feel that ad 1257 type armor values would feel better. I believe top their there is 80body 30 something legs with a weight of almost 40. Great helms would have a value of over 80 as well. This is not saying that all armour should be like this or close to it but I like ad 1257s take on medieval balance.
Longbows heavy cross bows low rate of fire but can threaten knights.
Ideally I'd thing that you have light medium and heavy troops and certain weapons optimized to fight each. A weapon good for fighting fully armored knights is not the best for fighting lots of light troops and visa versa. Light troops with antiarmor weapons are good at killing knights but are vulntable to light troops with swords. A double rock paper scissors model if you will.
Meanwhile I have evolved into quite the terror with my 500 stag bow.
Actually, northern armor in the show is plated leather, meaning that underneath the brown leather you see in the show is a plated armor.
Posted by DWA
- April 01, 2018, 08:02:57 AMIf I recall correctly and I may not in the battle of the bastards Jon's army consists of a contingent of wildlings which would probably be classed as light infantry and don't wear notable armor of any type or helmets and the northern bannermen he has been able to raise. While the bannermen are wearing armor and I am not an armor expert it appears to not be plate/coat of plates armor. I believe the north favored lighter armor due to a combination of the weather and cost.
What I'm saying is that I'd feel that ad 1257 type armor values would feel better. I believe top their there is 80body 30 something legs with a weight of almost 40. Great helms would have a value of over 80 as well. This is not saying that all armour should be like this or close to it but I like ad 1257s take on medieval balance.
Longbows heavy cross bows low rate of fire but can threaten knights.
Ideally I'd thing that you have light medium and heavy troops and certain weapons optimized to fight each. A weapon good for fighting fully armored knights is not the best for fighting lots of light troops and visa versa. Light troops with antiarmor weapons are good at killing knights but are vulntable to light troops with swords. A double rock paper scissors model if you will.
Meanwhile I have evolved into quite the terror with my 500 stag bow.
What I'm saying is that I'd feel that ad 1257 type armor values would feel better. I believe top their there is 80body 30 something legs with a weight of almost 40. Great helms would have a value of over 80 as well. This is not saying that all armour should be like this or close to it but I like ad 1257s take on medieval balance.
Longbows heavy cross bows low rate of fire but can threaten knights.
Ideally I'd thing that you have light medium and heavy troops and certain weapons optimized to fight each. A weapon good for fighting fully armored knights is not the best for fighting lots of light troops and visa versa. Light troops with antiarmor weapons are good at killing knights but are vulntable to light troops with swords. A double rock paper scissors model if you will.
Meanwhile I have evolved into quite the terror with my 500 stag bow.
Posted by Indo95
- March 25, 2018, 10:31:06 AMHave you watched battle of the bastards? The archers were crazy in that episode hehe
Posted by DWA
- March 25, 2018, 07:19:54 AMFirst off love the mod.
The archers do seem quite powerful or perhaps the armor values are not very high. Currently bandits seem quite lethal even when wearing the highest level armor. I'm not sure this is intentional or not or just from my perspective as I tend to prefer when low level archers pose little threat to high end armor. I haven't recruited my army of longbowmen yet but I'm expecting them to dominate everything which at least from my revolution of the show was not the case.
The archers do seem quite powerful or perhaps the armor values are not very high. Currently bandits seem quite lethal even when wearing the highest level armor. I'm not sure this is intentional or not or just from my perspective as I tend to prefer when low level archers pose little threat to high end armor. I haven't recruited my army of longbowmen yet but I'm expecting them to dominate everything which at least from my revolution of the show was not the case.
Posted by Apocal
- February 17, 2018, 04:50:08 PMI think part of the issue of armor seeming weak in the mod is that axes (other than Wildling bone axes) dish out piercing damage instead of cutting damage as in Native. And there are a lot of units that use axes, especially if you fight Ironborn, pirates, etc. I'm not sure if that was a conscious design decision or just a carryover from Viking Conquest, because it does make some axes rather hilariously effective.
Posted by Bob_Gnarly
- February 04, 2018, 12:15:51 AMOne thrown weapon that could be toned down a touch are the stones the levies throw when you're seiging.
If I'm wearing full plate armor and helm, I don't think I should be getting one shot from rocks doing around 90 damage. Thrown by levies...
This is on normal difficulty.
If I'm wearing full plate armor and helm, I don't think I should be getting one shot from rocks doing around 90 damage. Thrown by levies...
This is on normal difficulty.
Posted by Montblanc
- January 19, 2018, 09:46:18 AMQuote from: Bob_Gnarly on January 06, 2018, 02:07:45 AM
Thanks for the responses guys.
I haven't played M&B for some time, so maybe I'm just not used to the damage. I thought maybe it was ramped up in this mod.
I just took a thrown axe to the body from an ironborn pirate that did 155 damage on normal difficulty. I guess I'll just have to be more careful in future
Oh and Produno, awesome mod you've made here mate! Will keep me entertained until Bannerlord releases in 2150.
Fixed.
Posted by King J
- January 06, 2018, 05:10:24 PMyeah those ironborn axe throwers are pretty tough. You could set player damage to 1/2 or 1/4 so you won't get one shotted or one hitted